Маргарет Чо и Масаки Фуджихата обсудили сохранение голоса в меняющемся мире в эфире APEX Express

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee is going Beneath the Surface — with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. Both artists have been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho — stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing. Masaki Fujihata — a pioneer in new media art.And here’s what they have in common: they’ve both shifted with the times… but never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them changed. Listen in to APEX Express Check out: BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18, 2026—Sunday, December 27, 2026 Choligarchy at Berkeley Rep, September 15-19th, 2026 Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges at Oakland Asian Cultural Center, September 11, 2026 7pm Artists featured: - arjun-verma.com - www.pezhham.com - MazdakAlipour.com - emanhashimi.com Show Transcripts [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, I’m going beneath the surface with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. I’m your host, Miko Lee. [00:00:57] These are two artists who’ve been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho, stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing, and Masaki Fujihata, a pioneer in new media art. And here’s what they have in common. They’ve both shifted with the times, but they never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them have changed. So stick with me. First up, my conversation with Margaret Cho [00:01:29] Welcome Margaret Cho to Apex Express. [00:01:32] Margaret Cho: Thank you. [00:01:34] Miko Lee: I wanna start with my question I ask most of my guests, which is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:01:41] Margaret Cho: I think my people are Asian American, my people are queer, my people are all ages, my people are progressive, my people have hope for the future. That’s what I’m hoping. I think that’s it, and that’s who I am too. [00:01:56] Miko Lee: Thank you. You started stand-up so young in this very Bay Area, and I think you started at age 14. I’m wondering what’s your earliest childhood memory of being a performer? [00:02:08] Margaret Cho: My earliest childhood memory of being a performer was I was actually a singer. I was a singer in a band of children, and I was probably maybe five years old. We were on a show on KTVU. I believe it was called Asia Now, and it was filming in the studio and I wouldn’t stop waving at my mother, who was just off camera. And after the performance the band leaders asked me not to come back. Aw. I remember that because I could not stop waving at my mother and so I kept breaking that fourth wall. That was my first memories of performance. [00:02:47] Miko Lee: And what did that feel like to you? [00:02:50] Margaret Cho: I didn’t really get the idea. I didn’t really understand television exactly quite. I didn’t understand why we were performing. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t say hi to my mother while I was performing. I didn’t have a real comprehension of like even like rejection of what that meant or even performance or what that meant or television. So all these things that I come to learn about very well, rejection, performance, and television is my whole life. But back then I didn’t understand the importance of all those things. [00:03:22] Miko Lee: But there must’ve been some kind of zhuzh for you that you said, “Ooh, I wanna keep doing this,” right? [00:03:28] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I think so. Much later though, you know, I did perform as a pianist. I was a classical pianist. I was also a ballet dancer. So those things required performance, which actually would make me really, really nervous, I think because in piano you’re playing a classical piece. You’re playing Beethoven, you’re playing Mozart. So if you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. Also with ballet you’re choreographed and you’re in as a troupe. If you’re doing choreography with a bunch of other people- If you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. But with comedy, mistakes are a little bit more of, something you can gloss over a bit. There’s a little more control there, a little more room for chaos, which I absolutely need, I think, as a performer. [00:04:22] Miko Lee: Mm, this is interesting. You’ve already described some of the different types of performance that you do, and you’ve also done so many things in your life. But I’m wondering if there is a type of art form that still makes you nervous. [00:04:34] Margaret Cho: Music. I think playing an instrument in front of people, I think because when I was a child and would perform these recitals, I would be so nervous. There were a couple of times in recitals where I had to start over, you know? When you’re, like, eight or nine years old and you make a mistake and have to start over, and this audience is, like, hundreds of people, it’s, like, really mortifying. I still carry that. I play m- numerous instruments, and I really dread playing them in public. What helped me a little bit is busking, which I did quite a lot of over, over the years because when you’re playing out on the street, there’s a… I don’t know. It’s like people are not really paying attention to you, and therefore you’re kind of in this divide of I’m in performance, but I’m also kind of not. So that helped. In general, I refrain nowadays from when I do music, I don’t usually play my instrument along with the band. I usually just focus on singing. Even that is quite nerve-wracking. Singing and doing music still, even though I’ve been doing it really my whole life, there is something about it that, that quite, um… because when you’re singing, you’re actually also the instrument. So there’s a bit of more required. That’s why I always prefer comedy. Your quality of voice doesn’t matter because the music you’re making doesn’t have to sound pleasing. [00:05:59] Miko Lee: And when you were busking, what instrument were you playing? [00:06:02] Margaret Cho: Guitar. Ah. So I would play guitar, sometimes a six-string banjo, sometime, I’d play all manner of sort of guitar-necked instruments, which can go from, guitar to mandolin to a cello that’s, it has a guitar neck, so I can play- Ah that as well. So all those things, I cheat at everything ’cause I have a guitar neck. [00:06:21] Miko Lee: I love that. The improv just comes out of you in all different ways, I guess. [00:06:27] Margaret Cho: Yeah. [00:06:27] Miko Lee: So you have been a path maker, rule breaker in so many aspects of your life, from comedy obviously, and producing and starring in the first Asian American TV show, actor, fashion maven, author, rapper, podcast host, and out and proud queer role model. I’m wondering, what’s a career dream that you aspire to? [00:06:46] Margaret Cho: Ooh, well, I wanna be an old lady crime show, like Murder She Wrote. I wanna just solve crimes. I love, like, a British crime show, like an old lady solving crime. Like a Prime Suspect, like a Helen Mirren. I love that kind of genre of television, and so I would love to mature in that ’cause, like, it’s so interesting and also so rich and, I feel really drawn to it. So that’s something that I haven’t… I’m a participant in a lot of those types of shows. I’m on a show called Bull Trent, which is very much that, which is really cool. And then I’ve been on Law & Order, which is the ultimate, SVU is the ultimate sort of crime show. So I would love to engage in that genre more. [00:07:31] Miko Lee: Ooh, are you developing that on your own? [00:07:34] Margaret Cho: I’m not, but I am participating in lots of other people’s versions of it. They’re not out yet, so they will be coming, forthcoming. [00:07:44] Miko Lee: Coming soon, and then your own version starring you. Yes. The- Yeah … modern Murder She Wrote. I would love it. In what town would this be? In San Francisco or in- [00:07:53] Margaret Cho: Oh, San Francisco would be great. Yeah. San Francisco or, like, Marin. [00:07:56] Miko Lee: Oh, God. That would be really funny. [00:07:58] Margaret Cho: Sausalito. Sausalito would be so fun. You know, Napa Valley. You know, something, like, very, like, th- this community that looks very, like Saint Helena, like Calistoga, s- community that’s very quaint and peaceful and, like, kind of like foodie oriented and, like, very, you, you know, you think very upscale, but actually there’s a lot of dirty dealings going on underneath the surface. [00:08:20] Miko Lee: The wine country Murder She Wrote. [00:08:23] Margaret Cho: Yes, I love it. [00:08:24] Miko Lee: I would watch that. That’s fun. So you also have expressed your art in so many ways. Your body is filled with so many tattoos. I think you have over 70. Which of your tattoos evokes the strongest emotion for you? [00:08:38] Margaret Cho: Well, right now I’m in this, like, trend only getting art from Korean artists, and these are guys. People from Korea who are tattooing now are really the best in the world. They are the state of the art. Like, their eye and their talent is just so innovative. There it’s semi-illegal, so they do it under duress, you know, and they have to sort of do all these different things to do it. But their ability to just visualize things that are just, that seemed impossible, you know, these miracles on skin that they can do. The art now I’m really resonating with. There’s an artist now that works exclusively in Dancheong, which is a kind of the color scheme of Korean temple art. And so all of his tattooing reflects that. And so I’m working on a very, very large piece on my leg that is, all Dancheong, which you know, for me, like having had lots of different kinds of tattoo, like I had sort of Japanese traditional and a lot of American traditional, and a lot of just kind of different kinds of art. Now to just really delve into the art of my ancestors is quite powerful, and by being done by very young, very skilled tattoo artists from Korea. You know, so I get to speak in Korean to them. We communicate in a language that is shared, that’s ours, which is very different from the way that I’ve communicated with all of the other artists that I’ve had over my time as a tattooed person. So, um, yeah, tattooing for me, it’s, it’s all about Korea right now. [00:10:21] Miko Lee: And what inspired your first tattoo? [00:10:25] Margaret Cho: My first tattoo was done by Don Ed Hardy, who is a legendary Bay Area tattooer, also, an amazing guy and he was a friend of the employees of my father, who, my father owned Paperback Traffic, which is his gay bookstore just going in the 1970s. And so a lot of people were getting tattooed by Don Ed Hardy. They were getting full body suits in the ’70s and ’80s, and the, the, um, images, like, so on our refrigerator as a… When I was a child, my father would put up, um, the full body tattoos of these guys that worked for him. So that’s what I would see every day. Instead of, like, our graded papers or, like, stuff that you usually have on a refrigerator, it was photographs of completely tattooed people. Um, and that really stayed with me. And so when I was ready to be tattooed, and this is, like, 2002, um, my father’s employees and all of our, like, old friends took me down to see Don Ed Hardy, who was doing these body suits, and, he gave me my very, very first very large Japanese-inspired piece on my stomach and back. And that kind of started it off. I got the most painful, most difficult place in your body tattooed first, which is, like, basically your stomach, and your sternum, your chest. All those areas are really, like, those are the worst, and I got that over with. And so I realized, oh, I could actually keep on doing this. And I always knew that I would be heavily tattooed because of that. [00:11:59] Miko Lee: So your first one you chose really big, not just like a small something. You got a really big one. [00:12:03] Margaret Cho: Yeah. [00:12:04] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. Just jump in, girl. Just jump in. [00:12:07] Margaret Cho: Well, I just knew that was right, and I knew also this was probably, like, the only time that I would be able to get a very large piece from Don Ed Hardy, you know? Yeah. People know him, of course, from the clothing line- That’s right … and the sort of Y2K influence. But he is so much more than that. His influence on tattooing is really significant. That was towards the end of his tattooing career. He didn’t have many years where he kept doing it after, ’cause he explained to me that he absorbs the pain of people. Wow. And so he realized, like, that probably wasn’t so good for him physically as he aged, I was really lucky to get what I got from him, which is a very, very large piece and a very important piece. [00:12:51] Miko Lee: Amazing. And as you’re talking about your childhood and growing up in the bookstore, it just makes me reflect on how your childhood was so unique and so interesting. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering if today you were to make a television show about your childhood, how very different… With, with more artistic freedom. It would be so fun. It would be so fascinating. There’s so many more streaming options than just the three networks that we grew up with. Yeah. So, what would that be like for you to do a TV show on your childhood now? [00:13:23] Margaret Cho: I would love it. I mean, I would love to create that world, recreate that world, because, you know, we had the influence of, like, people who were doing a lot of very early body modification, meaning these full, full body tattoos, and, like, body piercing, which was such a different thing. I mean, in the 1970s we had the rise of Harvey Milk you know, and his assassination. [00:13:44] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. [00:13:44] Margaret Cho: We also had the devastation of the People’s Temple, which was all San Francisco people. [00:13:50] Miko Lee: Yep, yep. [00:13:51] Margaret Cho: It happened in Guyana, people don’t realize this originated in San Francisco and came from there. All the people who died were San Franciscans, and Oakland, Bay Area people. This is our people. My parents actually rented the recently vacated People’s Temple for my grandparents’ 50th wedding anniversary. Wow. Like, crossing the police tape. To go in and have a Korean party, and then my mother’s, “Lot of ghosts.” She saw all the ghosts. [00:14:19] Miko Lee: Yeah, I’m sure. [00:14:21] Margaret Cho: “Ghosts, ghosts, lot of ghosts. Well, ghosts don’t really do anything. They just make food get cold very fast.” You know, like that kind of a thing. So it would be a great TV show, I think. [00:14:32] Miko Lee: Ugh, I would watch that too. We’re talking about your new show, Choligarchy, which is gonna be at Berkeley Rep, and I read that you said it brings you back to your roots as a political comedian. Can you share more about this? [00:14:44] Margaret Cho: Well, I had the luxury of the Obama administration where I didn’t feel like I had to fight so hard to be heard and seen as a queer Asian American woman, ’cause I worked on the Obama campaign, I worked on, getting people registered to vote in 2008 in Philadelphia. I worked on all these different things with Cal Penn in 2008 to assure a kind of future where we are gonna have something different, and then we did. And then so I got to spend about eight years where I could do dance, I could do music, I could kinda like drift into these other arenas of work that I hadn’t been able to do because, before, had been, like, so much about fighting the Bush administration, so much about fighting what was going on. So now to be able to return to a thing that I’m very used to, like political commentary, where I’m really focused on using my voice to affect change and to create change, and it’s really profound, you know? I love doing this show. It’s got me thousands and thousands of death threats, which is also really terrifying and bizarre. I’ve always had a kind of very confrontational relationship with conservatives, but now it’s escalated to the point of, like, oh, I actually do fear for my safety. But I think that it’s worth it. The message is worth it, and I’m proud to do this show, and I’m very, very excited to bring it to very progressive Berkeley, which they’re gonna hear it better than anyone. I do think Berkeley is even more progressive than San Francisco. So it’s exciting. [00:16:27] Miko Lee: Well, San Francisco is filled with tech bros now, so it’s a very- Yeah … different vibe than when we were- [00:16:32] Margaret Cho: That’s right. [00:16:32] Miko Lee: growing up. I’m wondering, I heard you say about how different it was during the Bush regime, which is actually relatively tame in retrospect compared to the fascistic times we’re living in now. I’m wondering how different, now that you’re going back to the kind of political roots, how different is it from that Bush time in your approach to your comedy? [00:16:51] Margaret Cho: Well, Bush never descended into a cult. Bush never had the sort of magnetism as a person, to demand the cult-like sort of atmosphere that sort of exists now, where we have a leader who will gladly let all of his followers be on a decoy plane while he rushes away in a catering van. We think the decoy plane, that’s really America. Like, the decoy– we are all, as a nation, on the decoy plane. He’s happily content to let us all die to ensure his safety. It’s like they’re, and they’re still gonna follow him after that. So that’s a cult, you know? This is a different beast than we’re dealing with just sort of patriotism or the idea of like xenophobia or the idea of wanting this kind of America that Bush wanted. Bush couldn’t create that because he was not a cult leader, whereas now we have a bona fide cult and cult leader on a path to destruction. [00:17:57] Miko Lee: So given this time that we’re living in and how complicated it is, I’m wondering, especially as you’re going on tour with this show, what brings you comfort and makes you feel connected to home when you’re on tour or when you’re away? [00:18:10] Margaret Cho: Well, my dog is with me all the time, so that’s really special. She’ll be there at Berkeley. She’s really, really amazing. I’m a big fan of social media. It’s connecting with people on there, and people are encouraging me through there. There’s a lot of points where I carry home with me. I’m also, at home on the road, because I’ve been traveling and performing for over 40 years, so it’s a place that I feel a great deal of comfort in. [00:18:35] Miko Lee: Because you mentioned social media, I’m just wondering, isn’t that where the death threats are coming from, though, is social media? Or are you getting them in— [00:18:42] Margaret Cho: Yes. But I’m also get, I get them on my phone. I get them, like they— [00:18:45] Miko Lee: Oh, you, they- Yeah … find your cellphone and contact you— [00:18:47] Margaret Cho: Yeah. [00:18:48] Miko Lee: directly? Wow. [00:18:49] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I get them, like, you know… I’m also concerned about, I’ve been doxxed, you know, they threatened to kill my dog, and I’m like, “She’s white. She’s one of you. Why would you kill her?” It’s kind of funny. [00:19:01] Miko Lee: But you don’t respond to any of these folks, right? [00:19:04] Margaret Cho: No, you can’t, because you just don’t know what… I always think about, like, Melissa Hortman. They killed her dog. I don’t wanna be another example of, like, MAGA lunacy. When you speak out and you are a symbol of what they don’t want. They don’t want women, they don’t want people of color talking. When you are that you’re really in the line of fire. That’s why traveling works for me, I get to be very, very stealth and hidden. Um, and that’s kinda also why I travel so much, is to be stealth. Mm. I get so much encouragement from social media. I don’t wanna cut myself off from it. But yeah, you have to be careful. [00:19:42] Miko Lee: So you feel like that balance outweighs it? [00:19:45] Margaret Cho: Yeah, for sure. [00:19:45] Miko Lee: And I’m wondering if you think there’s something that’s misunderstood about you? [00:19:49] Margaret Cho: When I’m talking and people don’t like what I’m saying, they will say, “Oh, look at this has-been talking again.” And I’m like, “I’m not talking because I think I’m a celebrity. I’m talking because I am alive, and everybody who is alive has the right to speak.” I think this is really important. I don’t talk because I feel like I have a responsibility to talk because I represent anything. No, I talk because we should all be talking. We should all have a voice. I don’t have a sense of importance about myself or who I am or what I do. I think that everybody should be talking, and now we should all be talking because now we are all on that decoy plane, and he will leave us to die. So I’m going to say something about it. People have a myth about celebrity that somehow it involves our ego, and that’s why we feel compelled to have a voice. But I think we should all have a voice no matter who we are. [00:20:41] Miko Lee: I’ve heard you call yourself the patron saint of outsiders. Can you talk about what that means to you? [00:20:47] Margaret Cho: I think for me it means to be able to have, my queerness front loaded, my Asianness front loaded, my gender front loaded, all these things that I want to be able to talk to those who feel like they don’t feel represented by mainstream culture, by white supremacy. If you have felt rejected or even just not included by society at large, I wanna hear your voice. I wanna hear your opinion, and I wanna know you. [00:21:15] Miko Lee: And last question, why should folks go and see Oligarchy at Berkeley Rep? [00:21:20] Margaret Cho: Oh, it’s Choligarchy. [00:21:20] Miko Lee: Choligarchy. [00:21:22] Margaret Cho: It’s my nation. It’s my dictatorship. In my dictatorship, we have universal healthcare. In my dictatorship, we have a universal living wage. If we actually made the billionaires pay their share, if we actually stopped supporting Israel and Argentina, other countries which I don’t know why we give them so much money, but we do, if we stop doing that, we stop supporting the billionaires, if we stop giving corporations handouts, we could actually have a universal living wage where everybody in this nation would just be able to just live. We could just live because we are American. We could just live. And then your work could be what you really wanna do. That would be such an important change to the way that we exist as Americans. And we could do that if we actually stopped giving b- bailouts to corporations, actually made billionaires pay their share, and stopped giving money to countries that are not ours. That’s what my platform is. That’s what I run on, and that’s what I plan to do. [00:22:35] Miko Lee: And folk can find out more by going to see the show at Berkeley Rep, and we’ll put a link in our show notes. Thank you so much, Margaret Cho, for joining us on Apex Express. [00:22:45] Margaret Cho: Thank you. [00:22:46] Miko Lee: Next up, get a preview of an upcoming unique performance at Oakland Asian Culture Center. Listen to Sawaal Jawaab MUSIC [00:24:01] Miko Lee: That was Sawal Jawab with Arjun Verma, Eman Hashimi, and Pezhham Akhavass in Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges, a one-night-only performance on Friday, September 11th at the Oakland Asian Culture Center. The concert’s a rare opportunity for Bay Area audiences to experience the interplay of some of Asia’s richest classical music traditions from India, Iran, and Afghanistan. Next up, we hear from two voices, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at the Oakland Museum. Masaki Fujihata is a world-renowned sound, installation, interactive, and new media artist. He’s also a professor at Keio University. His work has been shown all around the world, and now it’s coming to the Oakland Museum, opening September 18th and running through the end of December. The piece is called BeHere / 1942, A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, and it’s a new augmented reality work. So tune in to my interview with Masaki and Carin Welcome to Apex Express, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at Oakland Museum. [00:25:13] I’m so happy to have you both with me, and we’re talking about the new exhibit BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, which opens at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18th to Sunday, December 27th. So thank you so much for joining me. I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests. I’m gonna start first with you, Carin, and then I’ll go to Masaki, and the question is, who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:25:53] Carin Adams: Oh, wow. I think there are lots of different facets of my family and who I think of as my people. Um, I think in, in this work in particular, I’m really, um, thinking a lot about my grandparents, my, my mother’s parents, and, um, my mom, who’s turning 91 in, um, October, and, um, her and her siblings’ experience, um, being incarcerated in Tule Lake. So- Mm … that, I think has, has a lot to do with wh- why I’m here, and thank you so much for having me. [00:26:36] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. And Masaki, what about you? Who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:26:43] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, in my case, my, career started with the computer graphics long time ago in the ’80s, so I came in, uh, Bay Area and, uh, West Coast quite frequently to join a big, uh, conference and so on. But then in ’90s, I was very many times to be invited to be in Europe, so-called media art, i- is so dominant. So my curiosity is about the visual arts plus computer technology. Then nearly 10 years ago, I started to play with augmented reality. I recognized AR is a very good technology to put the history in actual moment. So the title Be Here 1942 means, I try to call the people in the past in the present. After one of my friend, the professor at UCLA invite me to be in Los Angeles, then we started to focus onto the Japanese Americans’ history. That was the first, a kind of coincidence, but it was, very interesting to me because, I was born in Tokyo and grew up here in Tokyo, so usually I didn’t think about who is a Japanese. [00:28:10] Along with this production, I studied a lot, not only the racial problems, but also the identity, , not only the personal identity, but also identity of Japanese and also American. It’s really difficult to understand what’s is the identity in the America because so many different people are living together and of course there are several conflicts. This is very good study for me, through the new media technology and, through the meeting with the people. Some of them really had, severe experience inside the camp. I never had a chance to think about these opportunities. Then I really want to recreate what had happened in the 1942. That was my point of view for this project. [00:29:08] Miko Lee: I’m wondering when you were growing up in Japan, did you learn about the Japanese American incarceration? [00:29:15] Masaki Fujihata: Maybe, maybe, but a tiny. Most of the young students just thought, oh, this is the history, not mine [00:29:27] Miko Lee: And did you… Were there kibei that were there? Cause I know there were a lot of Japanese Americans that had been pushed out and repatriated to Japan. Did you grow up knowing any of those people? [00:29:39] Masaki Fujihata: Mm, not, not really. Not really. Um, how can I say? Mm, maybe this is the education, the Japanese education. They didn’t talk much about the history. The first part is an ancient moment, is very, very, you know, impressive. But, at the end of the term, so the modern age usually passing very, very fast. [00:30:10] Miko Lee: Oh, interesting. [00:30:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, so n- not only about, history between America and Japan, but also China and Japan. [00:30:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. [00:30:19] Masaki Fujihata: We have very few knowledge in, on the context of, uh, history education. I mean— [00:30:24] Miko Lee: So sort of World War II- I mean- and forward? From World War II— [00:30:27] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah … [00:30:28] Miko Lee: You didn’t really learn about it? [00:30:28] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, modern age. Modern age. I believe this is very big problem in the education. [00:30:35] Miko Lee: That’s so interesting. So the first that you really learned about the Japanese American incarceration was during, when you started this project at UCLA? Is that right? [00:30:44] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah. I know something about the history in the US, but when I started to do research, there are many details, and every people’s history is very, very different. So the textbook of the history is just the surface- So that’s why I wanted to show more the detail through a new media technology. [00:31:16] Miko Lee: I read a quote from you that said, “My aim was to peer deeply into photographs to derive from them more than was visible on the surface.” Can you talk a little bit more about what that means to you? [00:31:29] Masaki Fujihata: Yes, because, I started to think about to focus on the moment when they ride the bus. So then, of course, I did some research to read some oral history, but, most of them didn’t tell about the moment because I think this was just one hour or two hours for waiting. I suppose they usually don’t want to remember, and also they thought that this is not important day, then they forgot. [00:32:04] Miko Lee: What was it about the bus that you were curious about? [00:32:08] Masaki Fujihata: We planned to realize our project, to think about the beginning. What is the beginning? There, there are quite many novels and writings about the life in the camp because of, of course, this is so heavy. Four years in the camp is unbelievable. According to my research, some people said they thought the war will ends in three months. But in there they spend in the camp, over four years. So of course, this is a heavy story and also while in the inside the camp. There are some conflict between the first generation, second generation or American side or Japanese side. The beginning is, of course, the Pearl Harbor raid, but, the bus, suddenly one day the bus came into your town and you were asked to ride the bus, and before riding they didn’t tell them where they are going. So so if it happened now, how can we behave? So this is my question. This is the beginning, and they didn’t know what will happen in the future. And then in parallel, I did some research to see the photographs because, there are many documentary photographs were in the archive, in National Archive, and also Library Congress. I tried to, see the photography, but as I said, when see the picture, you know, the detail is telling a different story, against the comment. The comment is just they are lining up for riding a bus or something, or Japanese American families get together and waiting. Of course they have some name card. At last I found through one of small girl’s eye, there is a reflection of the photographer. But, not only the photographer, there are two, three, or four more people standing with the cameraman. Then, of course I understand they are all Caucasians. They are not Japanese American people. So for the little lady, for the little girl, when she was surrounded by, white officer, perhaps military police, she has nothing to do. But on the surface of the photography, she’s smiling. So this contrast is the beginning. So this is a problem about media, visual media. So then I really want to share this experience with the other audiences through the exhibition. That was my intention. [00:35:18] Miko Lee: And had you seen the photographs from Dorothea Lange and Russell Lee prior to working on this project? [00:35:25] Masaki Fujihata: Of course, I know these names because they are very famous,, documentary photographer, the magazine Life started to publish from the year 1933, it was hit, so popular. I was really surprised because they did the job to make a document for Japanese Americans, and there is over 4,000 pictures left in the archive. I saw all of these so many times, so I can tell each picture. I can tell what is the difference, between the Dorothea and Russell Lee. So each photographer has, different characteristics. But I really surprised because, Dorothea Lange’s photography is very different from others. And— [00:36:18] Miko Lee: And the government didn’t like them. They locked them away for years because they were too real. [00:36:25] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, and because, Dorothea’s photography is always associated with the object inside the photography. She tried to understand who is she, who, who is—- [00:36:38] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm … [00:36:39] Masaki Fujihata: and try to have a good relationship with the object. Most of the photographer, like a press cameraman, it’s just go there, “Hey, smile,” and shot is their, you know, way of business. But Dorothea’s way is very different, so sometimes, I can tell she is always calculating the distance from her to the object. I enjoyed very much to have a chance to see all of these details. Of course, another luckiness because all of these photograph were shot by the government, then all of these are now public domain. Even me from Tokyo, I can see so many photographs with high resolution. I think those are made after year 2000 because of the technology came in. Then now they are supplying 3,000 by 4,000 pixels. That’s why I could enlarge and to see the reflection on the girl’s eye. It’s a coincidence, but also it’s the evolution of computer technology from analog photography. So this is also interesting part to share with the audience. [00:38:01] Miko Lee: Thank you. Carin, I wonder if you could talk about what an audience will see when they come in to see the exhibit. [00:38:08] Carin Adams: The exhibition is going to happen inside and outside the gallery. So if people are visiting the museum coming up through our entrance on Oak Street, they will have an opportunity to enter the augmented reality application that Masaki has designed where they’re, standing there grounded in, the architecture of the Oakland Museum. But they’re also seeing people, dressed as if they were in 1942, waiting with their belongings and their family members. They’ll be able to see the buses that lined up on Oak Street in ’42. There was a civil control station that was across the street, and Dorothea Lange took some very famous photographs of people waiting with their belongings in front of their houses that, on the museum side of the street. Masaki has adapted the augmented reality that he first developed for Los Angeles for Oakland. So people on entrance onto our campus will have that experience, and then if they come into the gallery, then they’ll really be entering into the gaze of these eyes. They’ll be surrounded by very high resolution images that Masaki has blown up, to mural size. You’re forced to encounter the people that were reflected in the eyes of the subjects that Lange photographed. [00:39:45] Miko Lee: Thank you, and I know that in the collection, you’ve had these Dorothea photos for a long time, right, in the Oakland Museum’s— [00:39:53] Carin Adams: Yeah. The Oakland Museum is the holder of the Dorothea Lange archive, including some of her images of the incarceration. The Bancroft Library also has extensive holdings of her work and material , related to this history. And of course, Masaki did lots of research in the National Archive and Library of Congress. [00:40:16] Miko Lee: Masaki, I know this is the second version of the show since you have opened it first at JAMM and at UC, with UCLA. Yeah. What was it like for you to recreate it for the Oakland Museum? How has that experience been? [00:40:30] Masaki Fujihata: I’m very, very lucky to find OMCA. Mm-hmm. We started to think about the production in OMCA. I made a research through, of course Dorothy Lang’s photography. Then there is a number of the street, 1117 Oak Street is the place where people apply their address and family name. The Civil Control Station is that address. I was very surprised because this is a street in front of the museum, and actually the other side of the street was the Civil Control Station where the bus came in. So this is exact place I really wanted to put my augmented reality models. So I was very shocked because I never think about the museum is a real place. [00:41:24] Miko Lee: So it’s truly a place-based piece of art because that is the history coming alive in that very spot. [00:41:31] Masaki Fujihata: Yes. Yeah. So, all the projects start from the realization of augmented reality. [00:41:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. [00:41:40] Masaki Fujihata: So augmented reality is a kind of tech term, but augmentation is adding some information rather than the first wa- surface or rather than the display. In this case, we are putting the happenings in the 1942 in present, and then try to make a contrast between now and the past. The exhibition inside the gallery is showing a kind of process of the research to make this augmented reality piece because for making the 3D model data, we invite many volunteers into a special studio. I have to direct them. I have to prepare some scenario for them. In some cases, you are the university students. Coincidentally, you met the professor, while waiting for the bus. This is a fiction I made. When I need to make a scenario, I really need a research what is possible, what is not possible. So then the photography help me a lot to make a small scenario. [00:43:01] Miko Lee: How many volunteers worked with you on this? [00:43:04] Masaki Fujihata: I think totally 64 volunteers. [00:43:08] Miko Lee: Wow. That is amazing. [00:43:10] Masaki Fujihata: Each one was asked to walking towards the point where the bus would come, and then the second part is waiting, and then the third part is just lining up for the bus. So there is three different scenario. Then each person appears three times. Then totally you will see nearly 200 people. [00:43:37] Miko Lee: Wow. And I understand that you use, in order to utilize the AR, you use cameras that kind of replicate those used during the incarceration, and I’m wondering what made you decide to choose that? [00:43:53] Masaki Fujihata: So I try to know the core idea of each technology, because the technology is usually used for capitalism. My manifest is liberate technology from capitalism. So technology has another dimension, not only for serving for the capitalism to make money for your life more rational, but the technology also can give you a chance, who are you? What is life? What is the world? So I really want to use the technology another dimension of the technology usually used by the companies, and capitalism. In this case, this project is really good because very nice photography was left in the archive. But imagine in the 1942, photography was a high technology. Very few technicians or rich people could have the camera. Now so popular everybody has a camera inside their mobile phone, but it was high tech. And now augmented reality is somehow popular technology, but no one didn’t use the AR technology to think about what we are doing as an art. So I wanted to use augmented reality to, to think about what is our life [00:45:32] Miko Lee: Ooh, that is so interesting. I really appreciate that. And I’m wondering because you’ve seen audiences go through the first exhibit, I’m wondering if anything surprised you by audiences that have seen it and what, what you’d like people to walk away with after going to your installation. [00:45:51] Masaki Fujihata: I was really surprised because this was my first case the audience had a tear. So after they saw the augmented reality, some of the person said, “Masaki,” I suppose, she suppose that, “Perhaps my grandfather was here.” Could feel the same impression or imagine, she could imagine what had happened on her grandfather So it’s a bit like a cinema, but there is no written story, so each person can explore the images through a tablet. But, uh, maybe five minutes later, uh, the user will feel inside the scene. So In another words, I can say you are going to feel you are inside a cinema studio. You will be captured by the camera. And also another, okay, another interesting aspect because, I could develop this project because the photographs were left made by Dorothy and other people, uh, professional documentary photographer made these photography. So photography was left. And then, um, while you are using iPad in the entrance plaza of, Oakland Museum, you will see many Japanese people wearing the costume and, waiting for the bus. But now you are the cameraman. You believe you are seeing what had happened through the display, but, imagine for them inside the image were looked by you. So this is the viewer you are going to see, but also from them, from the object, you are the cameraman. [00:48:04] Miko Lee: So you want people to feel both sides, both being the watcher but also in it— [00:48:09] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah. [00:48:10] Miko Lee: Immersed in the experience. [00:48:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, hunter. [00:48:13] Miko Lee: Mm. [00:48:13] Masaki Fujihata: Image hunter, yeah. [00:48:15] Miko Lee: Image hunter, mm. I, I feel like you’re saying utilizing technology as a tool for your emotions as opposed to a capitalistic gain. I’m wondering if you’re working with AI at all, and your thoughts about it. Because you’ve really been on the forefront of so much multimedia since the ’80s and I’m just wondering now people are just talking about AI and the impact of artists and I wonder what your thoughts are about that. [00:48:39] Masaki Fujihata: I, I think, uh, it’s too early to, uh, work with AI as an artist because, uh, e- even the developer of, uh, AI didn’t know what happened inside, so it’s a black- totally black box. So that’s interesting part of AI. Uh, maybe you know some, some story about this. Very recently, uh, the AI ju- just hack the connection, then they escape from the inside the laboratory to go outside the internet. So this could happen. Uh, that’s why, because a human couldn’t imagine. So the AI doing something different, and it’s really a black box. Then, uh, that’s interesting point. If I can be inside the development company as an artist, I can make something interesting hacking software, but it’s a huge business, and, uh, I think this is not the moment for the artist. And also, as you know, all the data inside the AI is, uh, happenings in the past. [00:50:02] Miko Lee: Right. [00:50:04] Masaki Fujihata: And then, right, the present is important for the humans. What is the role of the artist? There is some, uh, sentence, artist is the person who is creating something new which has not exist before. so, uh, we are not AI, so w-we have to know who, what we should do in contrast to AI is the important moment [00:50:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I wonder if you would want to just reflect briefly on how this, this piece that you’re presenting at Oakland Museum is very resonant right now in America because of the current politics of incarceration of peoples and you know, we’re at the same, at the exact same concentration camps where Japanese Americans were held. Immigrants are being detained and put there right now. I’m wondering how this piece speaks to the moment that we’re living in in the United States right now. [00:51:13] Masaki Fujihata: Um, please do not make more mistakes that American government did before in 1942. So Our project can be a kind of reference what the American government did after the Pearl Harbor. [00:51:39] Carin Adams: Masaki, would you wanna talk a little bit about the new piece that you’re making? [00:51:45] Masaki Fujihata: Oh, I see, I see. I think- That’s a good idea. I, I totally forgot. Yeah. Thank you, Carin. Because I proposed to Carin and museum about to make a new piece. The idea is about, uh, the poster. The, that they… So the, in Okura case, maybe, uh, to l- late April in 1942, the poster paste on anywhere, everywhere inside the town, and talking about the, at the certain day, you cannot be stay here. You will be criminal. So, so this is the s- starting point. Then they need to come to the civil control station to sign up, and then one week later, the bus came in, then they need to go to the camp. Then the poster is now very famous, but, uh, usually, people didn’t read it Then I, I asked to, collect volunteers to ask read this text on the poster, uh, several different locations inside the Oakland. So when you see the final result, the view of the people reading the text aloud is very peaceful, very bright, California sunshine and there is a lake behind and sometimes, you know, the buses came and stop and go there. So this is very peaceful, but the content is very strong- strongly contrast- co- contrasted. So it’s a command from the government. I really wanted to, to make this contrast through this new production. So you, you will see three vertical monitors, and, 25 different group of people. I think there was nearly 45 people helped me to realize this [00:54:02] Miko Lee: What is it you hope to evoke by adding this new piece of the relocation poster? [00:54:08] Masaki Fujihata: I really wanted to involve some of the young generation and family and also, known Japanese American people. So all of these people, of course, have some fear against the, this moment, and then try to, uh, send messages. So they helped me to realize this. [00:54:39] Carin Adams: The video is really going to provide the soundtrack for the exhibition. There is no sound in any of the other film elements or in the AR other than what visitors bring in conversation into the space. But they’ll be able to hear the local volunteers that Masaki assembled reading the exclusion order text and we’re expecting that to be very profound- impactful. And yes, some of the people who volunteered for this new video element were incarcerated themselves, others are descendants, and then there are just people who are representing different immigrant experiences who wanted to participate. So it’s a very local production, and it really cites us in the present moment with this really chilling text from the past. [00:55:33] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me about the exhibit BeHere / 1942. I’m really excited to check it out, and I hope our audience gets a chance to go and see it all the way through the end of December at Oakland Museum. [00:55:48] Carin Adams: Thank you so much for having us. [00:55:50] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.